In June of 2007, Taran Adarsh wrote in his review for Bhavna Talwar's debut film, "An outstanding film in all respects, this one deserves the highest praise and of course, the highest award." That film was the thought provoking Dharm, which starred the amazing Pankaj Kapoor, as well as Supriya Pathak, Daya Shankar Pandey, Krish Parekh, K.K. Raina and Hrishita Bhatt. Fast forward two years and the film was recently honored with the highest award in India, a National Award - The Nargis Dutt Award for Best Feature Film on National Integration. The citation read: "For powerfully bringing forth the message that humanity is of much greater value than religion. The transformation of an orthodox and superstitious priest is very beautifully depicted." I got the opportunity to talk to director Bhavna Talwar and we had a wonderful conversation. I really wish you could have been on the phone with us to hear the passion that comes through her voice when she talks about Dharm and about making films! But instead you can enjoy her walk down memory lane about Dharm as she shares some great stories.

First, congratulations on winning the National Award. What does winning the award, especially the Nargis Dutt Award for Best Feature Film on National Integration mean to you?

It was an exceptional experience. Honestly, after what I had been through with the film, I was quite sure that, if this is an honest and fair jury, that we did stand the chance to win the award. When I was told that we won it I was ecstatic, I truly was! It was like a catharsis for me honestly.

Let's talk about the film Dharm. What prompted you to make it?

The story was not written by me, it was written by this woman called Vibha Singh. Vibha had come to me with this story and the context of the story, the whole communalism is what really got me and the fact that such a large statement was being made through such a simple, basic story of a man and his son. That was what really excited me about the film and the moment she gave me a 2-line narration of the idea of the film, I knew that this was the film I wanted to make.

Wow! Since this was your debut film were you nervous to take on something that was risky or were you just ready to do this?

No, not at all. There was no element of nervousness in terms of the subject that I was dealing with. As any first time director, I of course was nervous that I hope I can do justice to a film like this, but I was not at all concerned whether this is the sort of film I should make. Is this a risk to my career? No, not at all.

What kind of research goes into making a film like Dharm?

The film makes a comment on communalism from the point of view of a Hindu priest. The fact that the priest is so staunch in his belief, he knows the Vedas, the scriptures inside and out, only enhanced what we were trying to say with the film. The biggest challenge for me in terms of research was to be able to get his mannerisms right. How does a priest's day start and end, how does he pray, how does hold a diya, how does he ring the bell. All these details were something that were quiet alien to me. Honestly, the first trip I made to Benares in my life was when we decided to research the film, which kind of worked to my advantage because I looked at it from an outsider's perspective. So, all the smaller nuances I might have taken for granted had I lived that life, you know, kind of stood out for me and I noticed those small details. That was one of the biggest challenges that I made sure I kept the pandit's character, his mannerisms, his daily routine right.

In addition to that, I also wanted to understand from the context that we have been fed through the media - whether that context was right. So Vibha and I went out and we spoke to a lot of people and there is a an element of ghettoism in Benares. We went into the primary Muslim areas and we went into the primary Hindu areas to understand whether this animosity that we are constantly being fed - does it really exist? Just to get an idea of the reality of the situation. And I was happy to find that the average population in the country does not believe any animosity exists. They understand the fact that this is politically driven, ruled by politics. They understand all that. What is really unfortunate is even with a very intelligent electorate, that despite knowing that, it is very easy for people to incite us into violence. When I first learned that okay, we don't feel any animosity - then I felt okay, do I really want to make this film and create an issue out of something that doesn't really exist and then be giving it more importance than it deserves? But then when you evaluate the reality of the situation and you say yes, there are people who indulge in this violence. There is a reality to that. I must address it. I must talk about it. These were a few elements that went into the research of making the film.

You cast Pankaj Kapur in the main role. How did that come about?

You cannot go to Pankaj-ji with a half-baked story line, he'll rip it apart. He is known for his short temper, and this is my debut film and I went to present the idea to him and I can never forget the visual when I walked into his office the first time. It was broad daylight, yet the curtains were drawn. There was this old wooden table, a large desk with a lectern on it and his was sitting behind it with a lamp turned on and smoke billowing out of his cigarette. He looked up through his spectacles. This could be a very, very clichéd image out of a film, but this is what I experienced (laughs). The whole ambiance in that room was quite intimidating. I sat there and I started talking and I could hear my heart thumping inside me. It is just a blur and I just rattled thought the whole narration and he said okay, let me read the script and get back to you. I think the script reached out to him and he liked what he read and he decided to come on. In fact, later I even asked him: I know for a fact that you have turned down scripts of very, very senior directors, and what was it that made you do Dharm - you didn't know me at all? So he said, you know the script was so honest. He met me and he met Vibha. And he said when I saw both you girls, I just felt you would make an honest film and I just decided to do it. So, I think he worked on that level and that is how he was in the film, and it was quite an experience; there is so much to learn from him. I come from an advertising background. In advertising we tend to say things like actors are redundant (laughs). We would say to the actors: Just stand in front of the camera and I will make you do whatever acting you want but just with my technique. With Pankaj-ji, it was a real eye opener for me to get to learn and understand what good acting is about, how it truly can enhance the way you want to tell your story. The way he becomes the character, the way he creates these small little physical nuances that are unbelievable. I mean they are something a director cannot even fathom and it comes from an actor and that is their job. As a director this is what I learned, that as a director, this is what I want to do, how I want to be, how I want to work and I want to allow my actors to be able to take that character beyond. That is something I don't know I would have learned if I hadn't worked with him. It has just been a fantastic journey.

His wife was also in the film...

Yeah, (laughs) that is another interesting story. We were casting for the wife's part and there were times when Vibha and I would discuss should we talk to Supriya-ji and tell her that we should cast her? Should we talk to Pankaj-ji about it? But, I didn't really want them to feel that we were disrespecting her as an actor and just because she is his wife that we want to cast her. So, for really, really long I said no, no it doesn't look nice if I talk to her and say to her I want to offer you this role. Either we should have thought of it earlier and immediately gone to her and say okay, we have a role for you Pankaj-ji and we have a role for you Supriya-ji, but we hadn't done that. So, for a really long time I just kept searching and I just couldn't find my Parvati. Then finally one day I said, let me just forget this and talk to Pankaj Kapoor about it. I called him and I said, Pankaj-ji do you think I would be okay with this? And he said, "What the hell took you so long to ask? She read the script, she had been dying to play this part! But I could not tell you why don't you cast Supriya." (laughs)

Ooh that is classic! That is so great! So overall what was the whole filming experience like?

I had my share of my problems. I mean I was a first time director; I had a lot to prove to everybody before they could take me seriously. Right from assistants... I remember I went through some 3 or 4 first ADs, because I would be the one shouting, 'Okay Lunch break over! Can we go back and shoot!' (laughs) So, that person was thrown out and then another person came and then I finally managed to put a good team together!

Also, it was so unbelievably hot in Benares. I could see my actors wilting away in the heat and Pankaj Kapoor had a bald head. We were shooting on the terrace of the building that had to be at least 40 to 50 feet high. No cover - bare chested, bare head and on top of that there were reflectors being turned on to him and he would say, Oh My God I can't shoot right now, I can't shoot right now. But honestly because we were on a constrained budget I couldn't afford to say that we would not shoot. I HAD to finish that work in the day. So, we coaxed and cajoled and we would run the camera and then immediately someone would get an umbrella out for him! So, those small little things kept happening.

We had decided that because we were going to shoot in Benares, and the whole water issue had happened just before we started shooting, we had to keep mum on the main issue of the film where we are talking about communalism. So we decided that we were not going to allow the press in while we are shooting, just in case someone from the crew started talking and it would create an unnecessary issue when we where not in any way reflecting on Hinduism in a negative manner. It could have become that had we not handled it correctly. But the press started getting agitated, the vernacular press is very strong in Benares. So, just to get us to respond, they started to put out articles in the newspaper. Apparently they used to be on boats on the river while we were shooting on the ghat. They would be out on boats and just watching what we were shooting, and then they would put out articles stating there was a sequence where a Pandit was beating up a foreigner. This film is portraying Hinduism very badly so we should get them out of Benares and so forth. Finally we had to get the press in and tell them what the film was about, and we had to appease them a little bit: kind of tone that down and not face a problem.

So it is not just directing, you have to deal with everything else too?

Oh yeah! Absolutely! I think directing is only 40% directing and about 60% management skills. (laughs) You have no option but to be a good manager! You have to be a good manager to be a good director. Otherwise, you would go nuts because you have to handle egos, you have to handle moods and you have to handle all that.

And egos...well this is another incident. We were in Benares and we where shooting a sequence were I needed extras. I needed about 100 to 150 extras and these extras has to look like the guests of the Maharaja. I walked on to the set and these extras looked just like people they had arbitrarily picked up off the street. I walked in and I freaked out and I said this doesn't work. So, I went in and I had to say okay, this person works, this person doesn't and this one does and I went around the whole group. That is how one would do it in Bombay when you are shooting. Now, I didn't realise that I had hurt people's feelings. They were so upset! How dare she tell us we can't be in her film? Next morning there was an article in the newspaper that said that the unit of Dharm has stolen the SHOES of the extras who were called and eventually they were thrown off the set. Oh my God! (laughs!) I was so upset about that. But, then one realizes you have to be a little more politically correct in how you handle these things. I mean I am going to make a film and this extra's face does not work for me I can't use it...if I look at it that clinically it doesn't work. I have to be able to manage those people, their feelings, their emotions, and mine.

Did that surprise you that you would have to handle all those things?

You have no clue so when you are thrown into that situation you have no option but to swim.

Was the film everything you hoped it would be?

I don't know if any film is ever everything you hope it to be! (laughs) I don't know. A lot of things happened differently, but eventually the film works and I am proud of the film I made!

The film got incredible critical acclaim and it has been called one of the finest films India ever produced. What does it make you feel when you hear that?

I have gooseflesh right now, now that you have reminded me of that. You can't imagine the day after the release of the film. I was sleeping; I didn't want to wake up early and look at the newspapers because I was so scared and nervous. While I was sleeping I heard a voice reading out a review of my film and I woke up to that review.

Oh my gosh! Now I have got gooseflesh! (laughs)

My husband was reading out the review for me while I was asleep. He didn't wake me up, he just started reading it to me and my eyes opened to that. It was a wonderful feeling.

What was the ultimate message, if any, that you were trying to convey with Dharm?

Clearly, clearly religion is supposed to be so personal. It is about living the right way; it is about doing the right things. Let's not make it larger than it is, because that is when we belittle it.

I love that, that's beautiful. Dharm premiered at Cannes ... what was that like, and what are your fondest memories of being there?

My first film, selected at Cannes! I mean such good things have happened to this film, you are reminding me of all that, Stacey. I was happy, I was nervous. That was actually the premiere of the film. The screening was at an 800-1000 seat theater, and I was really nervous because there was Mani Ratman's film, there was Raju Hirani's film, and it's Cannes, obviously the best films are there. So, I was like, will people come to watch my film? And the theater was full!! I introduced the film to everybody and I went and sat outside, because a lot of time what happens at festivals is that people have so many options, so many films to watch. So, they say okay, fine, I am going to go into this film, if it holds me great, if not I will walk out and go watch another film. That's how it works, and if a single person walked out of the theater, I would have died. I would have felt miserable! So, I could not sit inside the theater because every time I watch the film I only see the flaws; I couldn't sit inside. So, I was sitting outside, my eyes on that door. Stacey, nobody walked out! I was like, okay, so far so good! The film got over and I remember a Chinese couple walked out first. I was nervous about whether people would get it because a lot of what I am saying in Dharm is being said through the nuance of religion. I was scared - will they get the complete picture, you know, because it is an alien culture, will they get it, will they get the emotion? So, this Chinese couple walks out first and they walk straight up to me, they have smiles on their faces, and this lady came up and hugged me. She hugged me and she would not let go! I could feel her body start to shake against me and I realised she was crying. She was crying, and she said, "Thank you for making such a beautiful film." It was such an unbelievable experience. I can't tell you, Stacey. I had a crowd of people around me. There was this French schoolteacher who said, "No English, no English. God bless you". This young girl, this American student who was there watching the film, came up to me and she was Korean and she said, "You know Bhavna, I am Korean. I have lived my life in the US. I face discrimination all the time. I hope all this world gets to see this film." What more could I have asked for!!

It got great critical acclaim, and now that it has won the National Award do you think now even more people will see it?

Yes, I think so! I mean the film in India; the theatrical response was not that great. A lot of people didn't go into theaters. I didn't get the right kind of shows. There are wheels within wheels why a film works and a film doesn't work. I used to be really upset about that. Why aren't people going into watch the film? Why aren't they going? Just let them get in there once and I know they'll be hooked -I know they will! Why aren't they getting in?! It used to upset me so much! But, you know, something now I look back and I think that had it been a huge box-office success in India, maybe it would have been forgotten already. This is a film that has a long shelf life! It has been 2 years and the DVD sales are unbelievable!

So it was upsetting that it did not do that well at the box-office?

Well, I don't know if I would ever say that! (laughs)

Okay! (laughs)

You know it is so great that it is being appreciated! I mean these awards and all this recognition has kind of created more awareness about the film. I mean, you can't blame an audience - ticket prices are so high! For an average Indian family to go out and spend 1500 to 2000 rupees to watch a film, they have to be really picky!

It seems that Hindi cinema is changing and more of the non-typical Bollywood "masala" films are being accepted. Do you think Dharm would be more accepted now?

You know, I really don't know. I don't think we have reached that level of maturity yet. We are not completely there. When Dharm was released, I was a first time director, we were a first time production house and, let's face it, we had Pankaj Kapoor. The moment you say Pankaj Kapoor, people say, "Ahh ye tho this is art cinema!" So they do not want to go out and watch it. It will take a really long time and a lot of persistence on the part of Indian filmmakers to continuously churn out cinema that we believe in and that doesn't only pander to audiences, but at the same it needn't be preachy! There are two extremes, one is the out-and-out Bollywood masala film and the other film, it doesn't have a story at all, all it has is preaching. We can't forget that the whole technique of making films is telling a story. So tell me a story and within that story make whatever comment you want to make. If I am going to watch a feature film, I want to watch a feature film that I will enjoy watching, that will suck me into the story, whatever the story is! It could be sad, it could be happy, it could be tragic, it could be anything. Let's not forget that we have to say that - let's make films that tell good stories. I truly believe we have a very unique style of filmmaking, of telling stories in films. Hindi cinema has its own unique style and by calling it Bollywood we are belittling it. We are not taking pride in our tradition. We have had a tradition right from early 1900s and we are an evolved society that understands cinema. We pander to the standard audiences and disrespect their intelligence.

What are you working on now?

I have just finished my second film, it is a film called Happy Again with Pankaj Kapoor. I have attempted a Chaplain-esque comedy. Again, makes a comment on life in a Big City, on how we are becoming success worshipers and forgetting the joys of life about relationships and friendships and warmth and love.

About her direction of Dharm, Subhash K Jha wrote, "Debutante director Bhavna Talwar paints a map of the human heart in confident, bold, vibrant but gentle strokes." It certainly seems Bhavna Talwar is a director to keep your eye on. She knows her craft, has passion and love, and really wants to say something with her art. We applaud that and cannot wait to see Happy Again and all her future films. We wish her all the best, and know we can only expect even greater things! If you have not seen Dharm, rent the DVD, it is a film that is not to be missed!